This has been a topic of debate among scooter riders pretty much since both these systems came about. What weighs more, HIC (with an oversized double clamp and oversized bars) or SCS (with a quad clamp, normal or oversized bars)? Mr. Kukk applied the good ol scientific process to find out the truth. Read on:
"A friend of mine, Arco, said that I’m a nolifer, but here goes nothing:
since I recently received my next test-run of wees with diffirent crossbars and steertubes (oversized and standard-sized), I’ve wanted to test one of the most wide-spread myths of scooter tech:
HYPOTHESIS:
using standard-sized bars with SCS is lighter than oversized bars with HIC.
__________________________________________
RESEARCH MATERIAL:
[Bars]
* Standard-sized WEE bars, 24x22 minus 1.5” for SCS,
.065” crossbar, raw: 1105g (2lb 7oz)
* Oversized WEE bars, 24x22, full-height (for HIC),
.065” crossbar, raw: 1220g (2lb 11oz)
[SCS]
* Tilt SCS (w/o adapter): 202g (7.1 oz)
* Tilt SCS “LT”-version: 176g (6.2 oz)
* Phoenix Smooth SCS: 160g (5.6 oz)
[HIC adapters]
* aluminium 54mm HIC adapter by TSI: 20g (0.7 oz)
* crmo4130 44mm homemade HIC adapter: 48g (1.7 oz)
* crmo4130 61mm homemade HIC adapter: 66g (2.3 oz)
[Clamps for oversized bars]
* Proto Half Knuckle: 120g (4.2 oz)
* District doubleclamp: 66g (2.3 oz)
[Other shit]
* FSA topcap with 35mm compressionbolt: ~16g (0.6 oz)
* 104mm oversized steertube piece: 126g (4.4 oz)
THUS THROUGH CROSS MULTIPLICATION
a 1.5” / 38mm piece would weigh 46g (1.6 oz)
___________________________________________
ASSEMBLING:
Now, we put some front-end setups together:
___________________________________________
#1 /// Standard-sized bars with SCS
+ Standard-sized bars, 24x22 minus 1.5” for SCS,
+ Phoenix Smooth SCS with aftermarket 25mm bolts,
+ FSA topcap + compressionbolt
= 1282g (2lb (13.2oz)
#2 /// Oversized bars with HIC (alu HIC adapter)
+ Oversized bars, 24x22 full-height for HIC
+ TSI’s HIC adapter, 54mm, aluminium,
+ FSA topcap + compressionbolt
+ Proto Half Knuckle,
cause half knux are the best (and sorry Helmeri,
but fuck district clamps ‘cause their threads strip).
= 1376g (3lb 0.5oz)
#3 /// Oversized bars with HIC (crmo4130 HIC adapter)
Same shit as in #2 but instead
of TSI’s aluminium adapter there’s
the homemade 44mm chrmo4130 HIC adapter.
= 1404g (3lb 1.5oz)
#4 /// Oversized with SCS (!!!)
+ Oversized bars 24x22, raw
+ minus 1.5” for SCS (1220g - 46g = 1174g)
+ Tilt SCS (1 3/8” compatible; without adapter)
+ FSA topcap + compressionbolt
= 1392g (3lb 1.1oz)
The oversized bars with SCS (#4) weight lies between #2 and #3.
______________________________________________________
CONCLUSION:
So you see, not only having standard-sized bars with SCS is lighter than having oversized bars with HIC, but even oversized bars with SCS are basicly in the same weight ratio as oversized bars w/ HIC systems based on Half Knuckles. HIC bars usually have a notch at the bottom of the bars (HIC, ICS and stock bars usually tend to crack at the bottom if a fair amount of gnarliness is applied, eventually happens to every bar that has a notch) and SCS clamps eliminate the notch-cracking issue. Thus: if you’re choosing between SCS and HIC compressions, choose SCS and your bars will last a ton longer, for-fucking-ever.
The only thing you SHOULD choose between is that either if you’re using a standard-sized tube or an oversized bar, because oversized bars (since they are a heavier by 6%) may help with the weight-ratio by distributing the overall weight of your scooter if you’re using a heavier deck (such as a Stan Smirnoff sig. deck) or whatever, depending on your taste.
BOTTOM LINE:
research proves that even if you’re using oversized bars, you should choose SCS instead of HIC cause’ the weight diffirence is slim-to-none and because SCS eliminates the cracking issue due to notches.
-mk"
Props to Madis for going through the trouble to do this.
Thursday, December 13, 2012
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
I like SCS and HIC but I ride HIC because it's cheap and easy unlike SCS, I mean what's a little extra weight really gonna do
ReplyDeleteFinally! thank madis!
ReplyDeleteIt's not really a study, all that we can say is there isn't much weight difference. I agree that SCS eliminates the bar cracking problem, though I haven't cracked a pair of bars at the clamp ever in the 10 or so years I've rode. HIC is generally cheaper and easier to use (in my opinion), if you strip a bolt its no biggie. But strip a bolt on an SCS, which is pretty commom, and it's a bigger issue.
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying HIC is better, they both have strengths and weaknesses. But to say 'research proves' (a phrase I loath anyway, it's probably because English isn't Madis' first language that he didn't say "my research suggests") you'd need a WAY more comprehensive test than that.
I like the way HIC distributes weight.
ReplyDeleteAlso, the most important factor, I believe, is how much stiffer HIC bars are than standard. Yes, it does play into the cracking problem, but the stiffness of HIC bars makes a scooter far more responsive. I could literally whip so much faster with the springy response of HIC instead of the gooey response of SCS.
HIC is about $20 while SCS can run up to $60, weight wise, SCS wins but cost wise, definitely HIC all the way.
ReplyDeleteHIC= cheaper, easier. SCS=lighter,expensive.
ReplyDeletei ride SCS but its really whatever floats your boat. I enjoyed this study, though that it was interesting and it was cool to read and learn about this.
ReplyDeleteYo anonymous dudes. Please get yourself an ID.
ReplyDeleteLike even your old AIM account would do the trick.
I dislike seeing people talking without a face.
Anyways,
I'd like to add a few things that have added up from other from other sites and consulting with Josh Toy on another blog commentary section.
One.
I also think that HIC is easy to use or install, also a little clamp does look better than a bigger 4-bolt clamp. But it is impractical.
As a shop owner I've came across dozens and dozens of bars (Districts, MGP bars, TSI Scepters, you name it) that have been snapped at the bottom, they start cracking from the slit and eventually get snapped. BOTH standard-sized and oversized bars. That's in Estonia. Since European sales laws are a little diffirent than in the US, it allows the clients to come back to the reseller which is why I get shit feedback on standard/oversized bars that have started cracking or that have snapped at the slit.
Now since I've never seen ANY large scale production made handlebars cracking because they were in an SCS, this puts SCS higher up in the list. SCS essentially solves a problem we never should have had (like when companies started losing folding mechanisms and started making just one-piece decks; shoutout to TSI!).
Two.
This little "study" (Graham, thanks for understanding my position: english isn't my first language so my word choice isn't the best) thing was to prove that standard-sized bars with SCS is lighter than oversized bars with HIC and a clamp. Not only it did prove that, but I also found that using a Tilt SCS with even oversized crmo4130 bars is at the same weight range as oversized bars with HIC (and it only basicly depends on the clamp or the adapter, deciding if it's gonna be half an ounce lighter or heavier than the oversized+SCS version of it. Again, why go HIC with notches if you can eliminate a problem.
Three.
The looks. I know some say that bars look better with a half knuckle or with a Tilt double-clamp (or what ever you fancy). I get that. It's STILL impractical because of the slit/notch factor. Get over.
That's why I use Phoenix Smooth SCS because that thing looks just the best out of all SCS kits, but THAT'S JUST MY OPINION. If Andrew got made some lighter and less burly clamps, I'd rock those just to rep the brand that designed SCS kits in the first place, but they show a very little interest in changing the clamp's superficies. I'm sure there's tons of other opinions about the looks and preference on SCS kits overall.
Four.
Standard-sized bars in SCS vs oversized with HIC in terms of use and feel of it, the standard one feels better and lighter cause it IS lighter. Standard-sized bars in SCS are about 100-150g (4-6oz) lighter. After this initial study was written, a few days later Arco and I went to shred a park and test some bars out. We swapped from HIC to SCS to HIC like 4-5 times at one afternoon before we realised that whips are easier if the front end is even a 100g lighter. It is very little diffirence but you can actually feel that. Since Arco is riding a 5.25 Smirnoff deck (which is basicly known for being the biggest and the heaviest deck on the market today), he actually stated out, that he caught BS heelwhip airs which he did not do with HIC bars that were heavier by default. I could basicly triple whip off pyramids with his setup on SCS/standard and not be able to come close with the oversized/HIC version of his setup, and that's from a bystander point as in I did not own the setup. We haven't tested out yet wether or not when using lighter decks (such as Addicts) would heavier/OS/HIC bars give some advantage on whips on them or not. AGAIN, all this is our opinion, and hence why I got my friend to test it out as well so that those theories and opinions would be based only on me. We swapped bars as much as possible until we realised which is better for his setup. You may say what you like, such as HIC feels better, that's your opinion.
Madis Kukk, any news on a release date for WEE bars? I'm looking for a new pair of bars and am very interested in riding a pair of WEE bars.
DeleteFive.
ReplyDeleteThat cost thing may vary from wall to wall, because:
1) scs bars need only one cut and a 50-60$ scs clamp;
2) oversized bars use more material thus by default they are more expensive if the producer hasn't stated otherwise for retailers. Within those oversized bars, HIC bars require a notch which also means extra work, time and money. So by default HIC bars are more expensive than just plain uncut oversized bars, which on he other hand are more expensive than standard sized bars as well. Those extra costs vary (currently i havent calculated out what would the difference be on standard and oversized Wees since i'm not behind my computer, so i might just do that at some point this week), so the diffirence between uncut standard and a notched oversized handlebar can be anything between 1-10$. Then you add the 10-15$ HIC kit. Cherry on the top, you add the 10-30$ double clamp. At the end, the money diffirence depending on the manufacturers can be significant but can also be minimal. And essentially the customer would be paying for bars that are heavier than standard-sized ones and unguaranteed that they wont crack/snap at the notch. Crmo4130 bars MSRP is already in 60-100$ range so with the clamp, HIC kit together you'd still have to cough out a significant amount of cash for the whole front end setup. Saving a few bucks on the compression is one of the very few good points that HIC has but the cost diffirence might be so minimal that it may force the customer to save a few extra bucks and get an SCS and lighter standard-sized bars, a guaranteed solution (unless the customer is planning on getting a Grit SCS, haha, cause Grit's version of SCSs are the worst)
So for the sake of the clients, I always tell my customers that I've never seen any bars snapped because they were used an SCS, hence why I use and promote SCS.
HIC-Easy to Install
ReplyDeleteHIC-Dialed Enough
HIC-Very Cheap
HIC-Little Clamp
Vs
SCS-Hard to Install
SCS-Very Dialed
SCS-Very Expensive
SCS-Huge Clamp
Madis Kukk, its none of your concern to know who I am or others who are Anonymous.
ReplyDeleteI'm still so confused as to why people think SCS is hard to install. I've had more issues the few times I've worked with HIC than the years I've been working with SCS. Also, whoever said that stiffer oversize bars make whips better than wet noodle standard bars is crazy. There's no way you're putting out so much power to the few pounds actually spinning on a tailwhip that any difference is made.
ReplyDeleteSCS dawgg bottom line!
ReplyDeleteUse a bigger oversized clamp like mgp hot head clamps and you wont have that "crack" effect it holds on higher than your hic slit goes
ReplyDelete